How about this for sick hands

[matricks]

As far as body balance goes, we are talking about DCI here... no one is talking about 'body balance'. That is like saying a Goalie in hockey has no skate speed... duh, he is a Goalie.

[Avi_drums]

Dennis' hands will move a lot faster around a kit (with far greater force) using more muscle groups. Body balance is a bigger factor here. The DCI drummer may have a slight speed advantage over a small range of motion using fingers, but that doesn't automatically mean he has better hand control.

They are two different aspects of hand technique and it's stupid to generalize about which takes more control.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Avi_drums ]</font>

[DeSeipel]

This is something I've often wondered about. Once in a while I hear about these "awesome" snare drummers in DCI. And they are awesome...on a snare drum, not a drumset. I've never seen a DCI snare drummer bust ass on drumset. Drumset and corps drumming are two different beasts.

I used to play in marching band in high school so I've had some experience on it, but it's totally different that playing on a kit. For one, on the kit, I'm not holding tree trunks for sticks and secondly, the heads on a kit aren't kevlar and aren't tuned nearly as high as a marching snare.

When I see awesome DCI guys executing these awesome chops on a snare drum, I can't help but wonder why they don't do it on the drumkit. Actually I have seen an awesome corps drummer on the kit, but he's an awesome player, but the solos are anything like a snare drum solo.

Buddy Rich, to me, sounds like a snare drummer-gone-kit player, which he was.

A snare drum solo (corps drumming) is different that a set solo. I'm not sure how to explain it exactly, but on a kit, the nature and context in which someone plays is centered around three main things:

1.Ostinato (usually a repeated phrase on hi-hat or cymbal)
2.Bass drum (usually tells everyone listening or playing along where the beat of the music is, or the emphasis of the phrase,beat,etc.)
3.snare drum (usually tells everyone listening or playing along where the back beat is and can be used to emphasize or embellish the beat or ostinato ..ie. ghost notes)

Now, a marching band snare drummer, in my opinion, is using a completely different concept when playing a solo or piece:

1. When playing a snare solo, the beat or emphasis seems 'implied' or is defined by the snare drum phrase, in a way. This is opposite of kit solos, where the beat can be implied by other means (bass drum, whatever).
2. solo phrasing in corp drumming seems to be shorter to me, I'm probably wrong, but I never played corps solos,had no interest in them and still don't.
3. Set based solos have the option to be more beat oriented, where snare only solos are sort of beat oriented but it's not as implied as on a kit.

I didnt' exlain the last three cuz i don't have a lot of experience in corps drumming, but essentially, kit drummers are an "army of voices" and a corps drummer is only a "platoon of voices".

[PocketPlayer]

I first was introduced to Virgil when I went through a drum corp phase. It was this article I found on the Net that made me do research on Virgil...
--------------------------------------------
"Drum set players are learning how to play rudimentally and use sticking coordinations to develop more interesting fills and rhythms. Their problem is the fact they have not yet learned to "think" rudimentally.

"Play this Ken... How the hell did you do that? I never showed you that before OR the bass drum coordination."

"Simple. It's a windmill - a paradiddle with the flam in the middle. You put your right hand on the cymbal and left on the snare remembering to move the left to the toms and backwards the flam. Just think through it. The bass drum part is on the lead side flam. Simple."

A graduate of the Rochester Crusaders is Steve Gadd, a famous set player and studio drummer. "I was into playing with drum corps, fine rudimental
musicians with fantastic technique." (SG)

Billy Cobham was in St. Catharines in 1961, 1962, and also with the Sunrisers (Senior) from 1963 to 1966. As good as Cobham is a drummer, he had to earn his spot into an already filled line. He therefore set out to do this by marching in the color guard. When a spot opened in the drum. All power comes from the "inside", close to the body
section, he played tenor drum. Then, a season after that, he moved into the snare segment. Now that's what I call earning a spot in the line!" (WM)

"Mr. Cobham, what do you think of rudiments?" (JE)
"I dig you corps guys." He took a swig of his favorite - milk and cookies - then tried to execute some flam drags for us. He popped a few but then tried flam ratamacues. (This author)

"Mr. Coulatta, Why do you play traditional style?"

"Well, I... um... um... ya know it's... because well, that I have the hi-hat on the left side. But rudiments are important." (He didn't know.)
(VC)

"There is a drum set player by the name of Virgil Donati that "trains" just like we do. He is fast and executes with endurance. Many of his peers are afraid of him
-------------------------------------------------

Evidently, getting the respect of the hard core drum corp guys ain't easy.

[matricks]

Dennis' hands will move a lot faster around a kit (with far greater force) using more muscle groups. Body balance is a bigger factor here. The DCI drummer may have a slight speed advantage over a small range of motion using fingers, but that doesn't automatically mean he has better hand control.
They are two different aspects of hand technique and it's stupid to generalize about which takes more control.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually having better hand control MEANS having better hand control. So Dennis can rip around the drums... so he has arm control. However, as far as hand control, he ain't got what they got. Sorry again.

And what is this 'far greater force'... what force are you referring to, the Jedi one? If not, and you are talking velocity, Corps drummers are still superior. Physics don't lie.

As far as talking hand control, here: Take Dennis and take Jim Kilpatrick. If you wanna talk about hands (not arms and all that) have them sit at a snare drum and play. Have them both sit at Dennis' snare and play, then have them sit at a Corps drum and play. I think the hand control will be evident in both cases. THAT is hand control. When you are talking about moving around a set, that is hand control applied to the set using arms and rotation... nothing changes as far as hands go. A miraculous metamorphosis doesn't occur when you hit a tom and all of a sudden your hands use a completely different technique... it isn't magic, it's physics. These guys can physically control the rebound and movement of a stick better, when you are talking about hands, which we are. Just because you brought up Dennis and people started trying to shoot you down because when it comes to this topic, it is true Dennis can't hang in the arena we are talking about... just cause people are saying he can't, doesn't mean now we have to include a whole set here... we aren't talking about the overall drum set, we are talking about hands on a frickin' snare drum.

[CLWarunki]

the GREG JACKSON video from drumhard.com is a MUST SEE!

The guy has power and style... dumping a glass of water on the drum and playing it was brilliantly crazy and exciting to watch!

...and lookout for the "stick on the shoulder" trick, that was clever.

[Avi_drums]

Actually having better hand control MEANS having better hand control.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The hands do not work in isolation, whether you are throwing a punch, or swinging a drumstick. Doesn't happen. So right there, you're building your case on a poor foundation.

Some of the top set players I've seen have better hand/arm/shoulder coordination and thus, have more of the stroke I prefer to see and hear.

Many DCI guys tend to sound bad playing on drumsets...if their 'hand technique' was 'just plain better' I'd expect this not to be the case.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ April 24, 2005 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Avi_drums ]</font>

[boom_boom_dude11]

All the guys in high school drum corp would BASH the set players as being technically na?ve and the set players would BASH the corp guys as not being able to play band music. It was the RAGE in HS.

It was also true, the set players couldn?t hold a candle to the hand technique of the corp guys and the corp guys couldn?t play a simple groove?for one, they had NO foot technique and didn?t know what to do with their hands (hats and snare) much less the BD. When they tried to play drumset, they would place a large floor tom next to the snare tuned to a BD and play the entire kit with hands. One guy played a talent show with no BD pedal behind the kit! In fact, it was the talent shows that caused the greatest frustration to corp players. They could not understand for the life of them why everyone went crazy over these guys playing such simple beats. They didn?t understand the power of music and playing a song in a band, no matter how basic it was. The corp guys could not play music in a band behind a drum kit. They could not groove and play the kit. That simple! Why should they be able to? They only played a snare drum or roto toms for some. They did this very well. But when it came to playing a tune behind the kit, no go.

The guys who transitioned from corp to kit had to relearn and develop bass drum technique. They had to think entirely different. They had to learn to play without reading music. This was very humbling and many quit. After spending so much time (it was like being in the military for some) developing their craft, to start over was very humbling for many. They had all the hand technique and them some, but they did not have the musical sense to play the drum kit. It had to be developed. The guys who played both drum kit and were in corp were considered sell outs and ostracized by the true corp guys. It was really very high school and territorial. If you crossed the lines you were going to get it.

[DeSeipel]

Originally posted by Vdrummer:
A top DCI or Pipe Band drummer's hands are developed far beyond what Dave or Virgil can do, and are likely to ever be able to do. It's a different idiom with far greater demands that those required of a kit drummer's hands. Obviously, Dave and Virgil kill on a kit.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So having coordinated independence of 2 limbs is more demanding that having independence of 4 limbs? I agree that they are two different idioms but to say that a DCI drummers hands are far beyond what virg or Weckl can do; it's apples and oranges?. In what way exactly are a DCI drummers' hands more developed? I understand speed and rudiments are more involved in corps playing and that it's all about competition, but I think having the independence of all 4 limbs, like virg or weckl is far more developed than any DCI drummer could do or could ever do, so there! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[boom_boom_dude11]

I understand speed and rudiments are more involved in corps playing and that it's all about competition, but I think having the independence of all 4 limbs, like virg or weckl is far more developed than any DCI drummer could do or could ever do

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">That's my point! Playing a drum kit is a totally different animal. It's all stupid to debate as you get older and more away from high school really. Look at that Tomas Lang dvd...hes unreal and no DCI guy could even contemplate those patterns outside of the hand stuff. What dave or vinnie does...or any simple rock drummer is beyond the DCI guy because they DONT do that. What's the problem here? Corp guys have superior hand technique...is that a mystery? That's what they do. What makes a guy like vinne interesting to me is he throws a lot of technical stuff into pop groovves but they are musical. this is very risky to do, but his musical sense allows his to try these types of things. that musical sense is ewhat the DCI guys dont have because they dont play in bands with other musicians like bass players, guitarists or keyboard players...or singers for that matter.